Forgeries of Wahabis
(self proclaimed Salafis)

http://www.orkut.com/CommMsgs.aspx?cmm=6601920&tid=2556682274112821727&na=1&nst=1

This blog is made to expose the forgeries of Wahabis. Actually a debate over the forgeries of Wahabis was done between one member of sunni aqeeda Aamir Ibrahim and other several members of Wahabis or their byproduct.

Here is one example from numerous corruptions done to our beautiful Tafsir by Salafis, I will present Arabic, then Salafi corruption and finally actual translation with the Arabic words in brackets (Please note the forgeries of Salafis highlighted in blue), If I were to compile a book on forgeries of Salafis then this would be in its Volume 10 Page 600

Amir

Welcome to this community. I know, that you will find it difficult to write in this community, because you cannot use your typical language to depict your brelvistic fitnas(You MUST read the rules of the community so that you do not have lame excuses later on).

Note that the standard of the language here would be the strictness of my tone, not the obscenity of your claims. Though only a fraction of your lips are unzipped, but it surpasses our level as witnessed in other communities.

Sorry to my brothers, for I had been the least patient to avoid, and most impulsive to waste time on something as trivial as a brelvi fitna, within the blessed month of Ramazan.

Sep 24

Umair

I would start step by step analysis of your post. Coming on to the Muhsin-Hilali translation.

The real problem lies deeper in you. And first of all I would highlight this defect. Its your roots that need correction, and when this is done, inshallah you would understand irrespective of your incapability to comprehend.

Before replying, I would ask you a very basic question. A very simple one, that the biggest of the brelvis can also answer(I hope). And this would point out the root cause of the Brelvi fitna.

What is Quran?

Note that you must be very careful in your answer because this question is very difficult for those who do not reflect. And this is the question, that caused big troubles at the time of Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal and caused many people to commit Kufr. Also keep in mind that the answer should not be more than five lines and there must not be any irrelevence. Your answer should also be correct, otherwise there can be strong repercussions to it.

WARNING: I am saying it again, that your post should not be more than 5 lines, and should be strictly related to my question. No Diversions whatsoever, for diversion is the biggest weapon of Brelvis.

Detailed answer would follow your five lines inshAllah.

Sep 24

@Moderators

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته
Please take a screen-shot of the posts you delete, if and when you do that. Please also do leave a note why the post was deleted, إن شاء الله

@Abu Mus'ab

Akhi, if you think Aamir or any of his ilk, so much as breathe a word against the decision of the moderators in this community - hit the delete button! No records required of that!

@Umair

Akhi, take a screenshot of every reply of his - knowing the Barelwis I know they delete their messages and it would be nice to have evidence.

A word of wisdom to you: Barelwis think rants are evidence, we know otherwise

Sep 24

Aamir

More corruptions done by Salafis

My tone here is nothing infront of false accusations of Salafis on vast majority of Muslims i.e. declaring them mushrikeen on things like Tawassul which as a matter of fact has been decisively and directly taught by Prophet (saw) himself, followed by Sahaba, Tabiyeen, 4 schools, Ulama and Ijma of Muslims therefore the accusation goes back to them. The problem with salafis is that they consider their Islam to be “Default Islam” whereas its absolutely not what they think.

My friend above said it right, one should start giving answers rather than deleting threads or typing things from here and there

Meanwhile I will put forward more corruptions of Salafis for honest people to ponder!

Tafsir Ibn Kathir is the most revered tafsir of Salafis, although I have also proven before how they have tried to corrupt it, but here is yet another example (there are tons more to follow from Tafsir Ibn Kathir itself)

Quran states: We sent not a messenger, but to be obeyed, in accordance with the will of Allah. If they had only, when they were unjust to themselves, come unto thee and asked Allah's forgiveness, and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah indeed Oft-returning, Most Merciful.(4:64)

Imam al Hafidh Ibn Kathir (rah) writes under this ayah:

الآية، يرشد تعالى العصاة والمذنبين إذا وقع منهم الخطأ والعصيان أن يأتوا إلى الرسول صلى الله عليه وسلم، فيستغفروا الله عنده، ويسألوه أن يستغفر لهم، فإنهم إذا فعلوا ذلك، تاب الله عليهم، ورحمهم، وغفر لهم، ولهذا قال: { لَوَجَدُواْ ٱللَّهَ تَوَّاباً رَّحِيماً } وقد ذكر جماعة منهم الشيخ أبو نصر بن الصباغ في كتابه " الشامل " الحكاية المشهورة عن العتبي، قال: كنت جالساً عند قبر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فجاء أعرابي فقال: السلام عليك يا رسول الله، سمعت الله يقول: { وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذ ظَّلَمُوۤاْ أَنفُسَهُمْ جَآءُوكَ فَٱسْتَغْفَرُواْ ٱللَّهَ وَٱسْتَغْفَرَ لَهُمُ ٱلرَّسُولُ لَوَجَدُواْ ٱللَّهَ تَوَّاباً رَّحِيماً } وقد جئتك مستغفراً لذنبي، مستشفعاً بك إلى ربي. ثم أنشأ يقول:

Continued...

Sep 24

Aqsa[dead busy]

@ Amir

i look forward to u'r opinions on Albani issue.if u'r not allowed here then write in Tahir ul qadri community.This issue hurt Saifullah so much that he tolerated abuse.though he has long list of so called rules.His reaction has increased my interest in knowing u'r perspective.

Sep 24

Aamir

Continued...

يا خَيْرَ مَنْ دُفِنَتْ بِالقاعِ أَعْظُمُهُ فَطابَ مِنْ طِيْبِهِنَّ القاعُ والأَكَمُ
نَفْسِي الفِداءُ لِقَبْرٍ أَنْتَ ساكِنُهُ فيهِ العَفافُ وفيهِ الجُودُ والكَرَمُ

ثم انصرف الأعرابي، فغلبتني عيني، فرأيت النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم في النوم، فقال: يا عتبي الحق الأعرابي، فبشره أن الله قد غفر له».

Translation: (In) this Ayah, Allah Ta’ala says to the rebels and those guilty that when they commit mistake and sin, they should come to the Rasul (salallaho alaihi wasalam) and ask forgivness from Allah and also ask the Prophet (saw) to make dua for them. After they have done this, Allah will definitely turn towards them and forgive them, this is why (Allah) said: { They would have found Allah indeed Oft-returning, Most Merciful}, The Jammah (vast majority) along with Abu Nasr bin al Sabagh (rah) in his Al Hikayat al Mashoor narrates: al-`Utbi said: "As I was sitting by the grave of the Prophet, a Bedouin Arab came and said: "Peace be upon you, O Messenger of Allah! I have heard Allah saying: "If they had only, when they were unjust to themselves, come unto thee and asked Allah's forgiveness, and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah indeed Oft-returning, Most Merciful" (4:64), so I have come to you asking forgiveness for my sin, seeking your intercession with my Lord. Then he began to recite poetry:

"O best of those who are buried in deep"
"And from whose fragrance the depth and the height have become sweet"
"May I be the ransom for a grave which thou inhabit"
"And in which are found purity, bounty and munificence!"

Then he left, and I dozed and saw the Prophet in my sleep. He said to me: O `Utbi, run after the Bedouin and give him glad tidings that Allah has forgiven him."[Tafsir al Quran al Azim Under Surah an Nisa Verse 64]

This whole passage has been removed by Salafis to show as if Ibn Kathir (rah) was not a Sunni who firmly accepted Tawassul.

Sep 25

Obair

"I pray to Allah that He may disable the ability to dream from Brelvi systems, because Dreams are the main culprit behind Brelvi Business and their stupidities."

This is the funniest thing I've heard in a very long time. And I will say out loud 'Ameen!!'

Sep 25

Obair

Personally, I'm bloody tired of this 'Barelvi cut paste business'! Can't they for once bring on an argument that they've written themselves.

Bro Umair, I commend you for your efforts. May Allah give you the strength to banish this tomfoolery.

Sep 25

Aamir

Umair dont sidetrack this time!

I knew other salafis would come in to hurl false praises to their drowning friend, this is typical wahabi attitude, Alhamdulillah Im alone here and confronting the fitnah of Wahabiyyah, so Wahabis be sensible and stop these false praises as its going against you… anyways this does not change truth to falsehood, the forgeries of Salafis still stand clear as water, Umair I ask you again to properly reply on the corruptions to Sahih Bukhari by Muhsin Khan, corruption to Kitab al Adhkaar by your Najdi press in Saudi Arabia, corruption to Tafsir Ibn Kathir in English Translation and I have shown proper Arabic of it, If you have the guts then reply on these too without running here and there

Umair said: Don't show disrespect to the word 'Rabb' by translating it as 'things'. Astaghfirullah!!!

Umair you need to get your eyes checked once again, here I give you proof from my own post that I know what it means, read it properly, I wrote in my first post itself as: whereas it means Command of the Lord.

Now your accusation that I have translated Rab as things is nothing but a blunt lie, because I have written myself what it means, actually it is Muhsin khan who has without any doubt given wrong meaning, here I will show arabic again

قُلِ ٱلرُّوحُ مِنْ أَمْرِ رَبِّي

Maybe because of your Khawarji inclinations Quran does not go beyond your throat, so I will translate word by word for you

قُلِ means Say:

ٱلرُّوحُ means The Spirit

مِنْ means is or from

أَمْرِ means command

رَبِّي means Lord

Now Muhsin Khan translated the Amri Rabi as a whole as: ’one of the things, the knowledge of which is only with my Lord’’

Continued...

Sep 25

Aamir

Why Quran does not go beyond throats of Khawarjis?

Tell me where on earth does one of the things come from?, then where on earth does “The knowledge of which is only with my Lord” come from, the literal and actual translation can never be what Muhsin khan the forger did, You will realize this completely once you come towards his corruption to Sahih Bukhari, Im sure you do not understand Arabic, so now let’s come towards Bukhari

The Arabic words used in hadith is: وأبيض يستسقى الغمام بوجهه

بوجهه in Arabic denotes (Tawassul) by the face, how on earth does it mean Prophet (saw) is requested to pray for rain? This is deliberate hatred for Prophet (saw) by you salafis.

Also tell me how on earth does Visit to the Tomb of the Messenger become Visit to the Mosque of the Messenger, there is no word Masjid in there so this is direct attribution of lies on Imam Nawawi (rah)

Also how does "everyone" who performs the hajj should set out to visit the Messenger

Become this

it is preferable, for whoever wants to visit the Mosque of the Messenger

Not to forget deletion of passage which proves Tawassul... Salafism is a gone case Umair, your tears are not going to save it now !!

Sep 25

Aamir

Israr caught!

Israr had given urdu screenshot of Tafsir Ibn Kathir having the translation of passage which the Salafis have removed from English translation under the ayah 4:64, however now he has deleted his post from inbetween, maybe Umair or some other Wahabi asked him to do so as it was going against wahabism

This is Defeat # 1 For Wahabis !!

Sep 25

Umair

Comments on your last posts:

You said:

Umair you need to get your eyes checked once again, here I give you proof from my own post that I know what it means, read it properly, I wrote in my first post itself as: whereas it means Command of the Lord.

Lols. You knew that Amri Rabbi means 'Command of the Lord', and still you said 'Blunder # 1 in this forgery is that Amri Rabi is translated as ’’one of the things’’, whereas it means Command of the Lord.

Shame on you. You knew that the word 'Rabb' means 'Lord' as depicted in the phrase of M/H translation: 'the knowledge of which is only with my Lord’. But you still said that M/H have translated as 'one of the things'.

Not knowing is one thing, and you can be pardoned for that. But doing a mistake intentionally to decieve others is worse than Brelvism.

Now you have come to slightly right path to say:

Now Muhsin Khan translated the Amri Rabi as a whole as: ’one of the things, the knowledge of which is only with my Lord’’ Tell me where on earth does one of the things come from?, then where on earth does “The knowledge of which is only with my Lord” come from, the literal and actual translation can never be what Muhsin khan the forger did

You forgot the whole lecture, where I emphasized upon the fact that 'Quran can never be translated'??? You forgot that Quran is so Superior that putting it into exact words is impossible??? You forgot that the 'translation' in English, is but an explanation and is never meant to literally translate the Quran?? You forgot that 'Muhsin/Hilali translation' is beyond your level to understand??? You forgot that 'Brelvism' itself is a forgery???

I hope you understood it now.

Concerning the reply to the rest of the post, I will be very pleased, if you, irrespective of being a Brelvi, get patient(sabir-not mareez)

. I told you that I would reply whenever I will(inshallah). Bring Sami here, its disgusting to repeat things that don't get into your head.

Sep 25

Umair

@ obair

Amir! you are again reading a post directed to someone else??? Good child move forward.

Brother Obair there are funnier things. Let me give examples:

Salafism is a gone case Umair, your tears are not going to save it now !!

I am literally laughing on this.

. A brelvi saying 'salafism is a gone case', lols.

Another funny thing.

This is Defeat # 1 For Wahabis !!

● The conclusion is that your statement is again as dumb as brelvism itself.

‘Mistranslated by Muhsin Khan due to his hatred for Nabi salallaho alaihi wasalam’.

The poetic verses are translated in absolutely the right way. Its only you who cannot understand. Why do you forget so soon. It isn’t even one day that I had told you that Muhsin/HIlali translation is not easy for you to understand. Didn’t you understand this sentence concerning Muhsin/Hilali translation?? i.e. a reader unfamiliar with the Arabic original often has the difficulty in distinguishing one from the other.

And further to clarify the point, that, it is not at all ‘hatred’ to seek the whole being of Holy Prophet(saw), rather only the ‘face’. Infact it is you who limit the qualities of our Blessed Holy Prophet(saw) to only his face. And then you call yourselves ‘Ashiq e Rasool’. Ironic!!!

One more thing to clarify is that there is nothing wrong in asking someone for help, or Dua, as long as he is alive. The Holy Prophet(saw) even advised Hazrat Umar(ra) to ask Awais Qarni(ru)[A Taabi at the prophet’s time] to pray for him. [Sahih Muslim]
Therefore if Sahaba used the ‘waseela’ of the Holy Prophet(saw) while he(saw) was amongst them, then they haven’t done a practice abhorred by Allah Almighty. But when the Holy Prophet(saw) died, this practice of wasila was invalid as evident in the following narration of Sahih Bukhari.

Bukhari :: Book 172 :: Volume 2 :: Hadith 123
Narrated Anas:
Whenever drought threatened them, 'Umar bin Al-Khattab, used to ask Al-Abbas bin 'Abdul Muttalib to invoke Allah for rain. He used to say, "O Allah! We used to ask our Prophet to invoke You for rain, and You would bless us with rain, and now we ask his uncle to invoke You for rain. O Allah ! Bless us with rain." And so it would rain

Sep 25

Umair

See in this narration, Umar(ra) sought Abbas(ra)’s face rather than Holy Prophet(saw) face. Would you now follow the Sahabi?? Or would you continue your baseless brelvism and forgeries of Raza Khan and Tahir Qadri in the name of the the Holy Prophet(saw)??

More coming as soon as I wish(inshallah). It may be one weak. So be patient, and avoid your cowardice that you transform into rants and lies that Umair ‘deliberately’ skipped the other parts. I had told you in the very first of my posts that ‘I would start step by step analysis of your post’, but I don’t understand why doesn’t it get into your head. Bring up Sami, child!

Read the words in red above again and again until it gets into your head and you do not rant that "Umair 'deliberately' missed other points".

And for this interval, you are required to find faults yourself in your remaining blunders. Hint: Use the facts that the base of Brelvism is corrupt at the base and Brelvis are blind followers of only what they desire.

Regarding the snap of the Urdu translation of Tafsir ibn e Kathir. Don't worry, I would post it at the relevant position. This is not at all a problem. Don't create diversions. Problem lies in a different aspect that a Brelvi mind may not discern until explained. For that you would need to wait for the time until I wish to reply to you and waste my time.

Sep 25

Umair

@ Amir

Home Assignment until my absence:

Scan and Post the part: "Section: The Visit to the Tomb of the Messenger of Allah (Allah Bless Him and Give Him Peace), and the Remembrances of Allah Made There"

Note: Scan the real Arabic text. I will analyse it and then reply. The scan is must, remember. Otherwise your accusations will have no weight at all. Anyways, I would still reply on your stupidities.


Sep 26 Aamir Umair brought into light another forgery of M.Khan I will start with the false translation of hadith of Umar ibnul Khattab (RA) and Abbas (RA) which Umair showed, Alhamdulillah the deception of salafis will be exposed in everything they say, they wildly copy/paste stuff and claim to have proven something whereas their worth is not more than dung on the street. Alhamdulillah I have an opportunity to reveal yet another forgery/corruption of salafis, the deception of Umair on the hadith which I showed before is good for nothing i.e. the wording of hadith contains poetry therefore actual meaning will be changed… ROFL!!! although he has no proof for it and is mocking at Shariah and its principles. Alright if that is the case then the wording of the hadith used by Umair is not poetry and even that is a corruption done by Muhsin Khan, here is the proof from Arabic and Umair has absolutely no clue what he is saying therefore he is making a mockery of himself and his Wahabi cult. Arabic of the hadith: ‏كان إذا قحطوا استسقى ‏ ‏بالعباس بن عبد المطلب ‏ ‏فقال اللهم ‏ ‏إنا كنا نتوسل إليك بنبينا فتسقينا وإنا نتوسل إليك بعم نبينا فاسقنا قال فيسقون http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?Doc=0&Rec=1612 Note the wording of hadith is: اللهم ‏ ‏إنا كنا نتوسل إليك بنبينا فتسقينا وإنا نتوسل إليك بعم نبينا Which means: O Allah! We would use our Prophet as a means(Waseela) to You and You then sent us rain; now we use our Prophet's uncle as a means(Waseela) to You The word used in Arabic is نتوسل therefore Umair you have put an axe on your own feet by going off tangents and brining in yet another hadith from Bukhari which Muhsin khan has tried to corrupt, Sep 26 Aamir A glimpse of refutation of Salafis on Tawassul Alhamdulillah I can break backbone of Wahabis on the topic Tawassul itself but I do not want to go in length regarding it over here, but I would like to clarify something shortly i.e. Asking through means of Abbas (RA) actually gives Jawaaz of Tawassul through other righteous people not that it nullifies that of Prophet (saw) and also note Umar (RA) turned towards Abbas (RA) only because he was uncle of Prophet (saw) so this is itself a daleel of Tawassul always being through the Dhaat of Muhammad (salallaho alaihi wasalam) because Umar (RA) did not go to Dhul Khawsira (Father of Wahabism) to make him means to Allah, above all from sahih ahadith and Athaar it is proven from sahaba to use Prophet (saw) as Waseela even after his Dhahiri demise, this I can prove with ahadith with completely sahih chains even on the criteria of Bukhari/Muslim. Hence Tawassul will always be a blessing for Ummah through the blessed Dhaat of Nabi (saw) Im sure Umair must be biting his nails by now, but then again salafis use every way possible to justify their absurdities like Umair had done above regarding Bi Wajihi to mean: “requested to pray” which is both wrong in Lughwi and Shari’i sense ROFL !!! Stop mocking at Islam Umair, You have absolutely no clue how you have brought destruction to your own sect now! Umair said: From the very beginning of Islam, many deviant sects have interpreted with their own desires, and tried to translate it in the manner, with which their business flourishes. True and you are deliberately forgetting khawarjis i.e. your sect which is present till today and gives false interpretations, meanings which are completely contrary to actual, also falsely applying ayahs on other Muslims, Ibn `Umar considered the Khawarij and the heretics as the worst beings in creation, and he said: They went to verses which were revealed about the disbelievers and applied them to the Believers. [Bukhari, In the chapter of Killing the Khawarij and Mulhidin] Continued... Sep 26 Aamir The traits of Wahabis This is a known trait of your wahabi sect Umair i.e. applying ayahs revealed for Idols/Mushrikeen even on Anbiya (Naudhobillah) Umair said: Point to emphasize is that, if a 'Brelvi deviant' rants in one corner with his own dictionary meaning, and another Qadiani deviant rants in the other corner with his own dictionary meaning, then this is certainly not gonna lead to any sensible result. This is a very clever tactic used by Umair to justify all kinds of forgeries done by Wahabis to our texts i.e. Bi Wajihi which both literally and actually means ‘’By the Face’’ and can never mean “requested to pray”, but still I will give Umair benefit of the doubt because my way is to allow these wahabis to cry all they want, until they are left with nothing but banging their heads on the wall. Umair tell me from any book of Lughat or any other means that Bi-Wajihi is to request???? All you need is some honesty over here otherwise the constant brainwash from wahabism will never make you seek truth. Remember we are not talking about Mirza Ghalib over here but rather Sahih Bukhari, yes interpretation after proper translation can be justified but forgery to deny actual meaning will never be accepted. Again nice try Umair but no luck Umair said: Shame on you. You knew that the word 'Rabb' means 'Lord' as depicted in the phrase of M/H translation: 'the knowledge of which is only with my Lord’. But you still said that M/H have translated as 'one of the things'. Hence your previous accusation stands to be Batil, khair now tell me where on earth is one of the things mentioned in arabic? There is no such wording as Ahad al Ashiya mentioned in Arabic of that ayah and Muhsin khan has not put this in brackets too therefore he is clearly trying to present Quran wrongly, and where on earth does “the knowledge of which is only with my lord” come from? Continued... Sep 26 Aamir Original Arabic of Kitaab al Adhkaar! Stop fooling people Umair you have nothing proper to say rather than giving lengthy irrelevant lectures as you said from your own mouth i.e. you are giving a lecture .. LOL. You said: Not knowing is one thing, and you can be pardoned for that. But doing a mistake intentionally to decieve others is worse than Brelvism. Applies fully on Salafis who have tampered our beautiful texts, You have exposed wahabism from your own mouth. You are asking me to bring sami, common man don’t make such a mistake, Im already putting last nails in your wahabi coffin and you want wahabism to be burnt rather than buried … LOL Regarding forgery to Imam Nawawi(rah)’s Kitab al Adhkaar, Umair said: Scan the real Arabic text here is original Arabic for all Arabic knowers to read honestly (provided any traces of honesty are found amongst Khawarjis) Published by Maktaba Mashkaat al Islamiya in 1425 A.H اعلم أنه ينبغي لكل من حجّ أن يتوجه إلى زيارة رسول اللّه صلى اللّه عليه وسلم، سواء كان ذلك طريقه أو لم يكن، فإن زيارته صلى اللّه عليه وسلم من أهمّ القربات وأربح المساعي وأفضل الطلبات، فإذا توجَّه للزيارة أكثرَ من الصلاة عليه صلى اللّه عليه وسلم في طريقه، فإذا وقعَ بصرُه على أشجار المدينة وحَرمِها وما يَعرفُ بها زاد من الصلاة والتسليم عليه صلى اللّه عليه وسلم، وسألَ اللّه تعالى أن ينفعَه بزيارته صلى اللّه عليه وسلم، وأن يُسعدَه بها في الدارين، وليقلْ‏:‏ اللَّهُمَّ افْتَحْ عَليَّ أبْوَابَ رَحْمَتِكَ وَارْزُقْنِي في زِيارَةِ قَبْرِ نَبِيِّكَ صلى اللّه عليه وسلم ما رزقْتَهُ أوْلِياءَكَ وأهْلَ طَاعَتِكَ واغْفِرْ لي وارْحمنِي يا خَيْرَ مَسْؤُول Points to note in this a) ينبغي لكل من حجّ b)أن يتوجه إلى زيارة رسول اللّه c)سواء كان ذلك طريقه أو لم يكن، فإن زيارته صلى اللّه عليه وسلم من أهمّ القربات وأربح المساعي وأفضل الطلبات، (Important Note: This has been completely deleted by Wahabis to deny Tawassul and present Imam Nawawi as a wahabi although he was a firm Sunni) d) وسألَ اللّه تعالى أن ينفعَه بزيارته صلى اللّه عليه وسلم، Continued... Sep 26 Aamir Continued... e) اللَّهُمَّ افْتَحْ عَليَّ أبْوَابَ رَحْمَتِكَ وَارْزُقْنِي في زِيارَةِ قَبْرِ This proves deliberate, intentional and deceptful hatred of Salafis for our beloved Prophet (salallaho alaihi wasalam), they have not spared our great texts to be forged in order to spread their false version of Islam. Umair If your Wahabism/Khawarjism is on Haqq then prove the forgery of your salafis to be right from this Passage without giving your usual self assumed interpretations, and by the way you forgot to explain the forgeries to Tafsir Ibn Kathir (rah) as a matter of fact you have done nothing but put in your good for nothing! Sep 26 Aqsa[dead busy] @Saifullah Assalaamu alaykum when u r back and active,chk this thread,u'll have to read few short posts ,http://www.orkut.com/CommMsgs.aspx?cmm=6601920&tid=2554264574760591151&na=2&nst=13 u see there is no complaints thread ,so this case is pending,come and judge when u r active.u'r other mod has also seen this thread,lets see how much all of u have value for justice. btw,this community is very inactive,if mods cant moderate each thread then wht a pity. i wonder since when r u inactive,coz when Aamir created this thread u were quick to create poll and also write here.so worries. anyway,no big deal,the case is in u'r court ,the burden is on u and u'r mods to judge . feamanillah Sep 26 Saifullah @Aqsa I am not active for moderation or discussion - though I do find time to quip now and then. Did you ask the moderator to moderate the thread? Did you speak to him/her about what was so offensive about that? Please do not confuse your failure to understand as me trying to pull a fast one. I never did say I was inactive - I said I was unavailable for moderation due to constraints on time. Yes I am quick to write here, as I peruse through this community and others regularly - I just don't find enough time to carry on a meaningful discussion. Now that I see that thread again, Israr accused you of something, you asked him to produce proof, which he didn't - so what exactly are you asking for? Israr himself proved his accusation baseless by not providing evidence. So what is it that you want exactly? Highlight a person's mistake over and over again? And don't hurl veiled insults regarding justice here - I don't tolerate baseless remarks against my honor, however well-worded they may be. Furthermore, when there is disagreement over something and people launch a personal attack it means that they have no knowledge on the subject which is why they character assassinate you - like the Barelwis , which means they are already conceding defeat. Only a naive person would feel bad about such kind of behavior! The next time before accusing me ukhtee, stop to think what I wrote and please do not assume anything. For assumption is the worst thing you could do to yourself! Sep 26 Aamir More forgeries of Salafis Quran states: Verily Satan is an enemy to you: so treat him as an enemy. He only invites his adherents, that they may become Companions of the Blazing Fire. (Surah al Fatir, 35:6) In Tafsir of this Ayah Imam Ahmed Al Sawi (Rahimuhullah, d.1241/1825) writes: It is said this verse was revealed about the Kharijites [foretelling their appearance], who altered the interpretation of the Qur’an and sunnah, on the strength of which they declared it lawful to kill and take the property of Muslims, as may now be seen in their modern counterparts; namely, a sect in the Hijaz called "Wahhabis," who "think they are on something, truly they are the liars. Satan has gained mastery over them and made them forget Allah’s remembrance. Those are Satan’s party, truly Satan’s party, they are the losers" (Qur’an 58:18–19). We ask Allah Most Generous to extirpate them completely (Sawi: Hashiya al-Sawi ‘ala al-Jalalayn, 3.255). This passage is in Isa al Babi al Halabi edition published from Cairo in 1930s. It was also printed completely in the Maktaba al Mashhad al Husaini edition (3.307–308) published in Cairo in 1939, which was reproduced by offset by Dar Ihya’ al Turath al ‘Arabi (3.307–308) in Beirut in the 1970s. The Wahabis corrupted this text by bribing Dar al Fikr in Beirut and thus have completly removed the crucial part from inbetween i.e. "namely, a sect in the Hijaz called ‘Wahhabis’" Now people should understand that Khawarji is the right title for Wahabis, Imam Ibn Abideen ash Shami (rah) has also declared them Khawarjis in his Hashiya Dur al Mukhtar, Imams of Makkah and Madina during the advent of Wahabism also declared them Khawarjis, above all the very brother of Muhammad bin Abdul Wahab i.e. Suliman bin Abdul Wahab called his brother as the Qarn ash Shaytan (horn of Shaytan towards which Prophet salallaho alaihi wasalam pointed) Sep 27 Umair Amir continues his Brelvism I had thought that I would not reply this ignorant for some days, but then I thought that it would be better to deal with him early so that I can utilize rest of the Ramazan in the best possible manner I can. You said: Alhamdulillah I have an opportunity to reveal yet another forgery/corruption of salafis, the deception of Umair on the hadith which I showed before is good for nothing i.e. the wording of hadith contains poetry therefore actual meaning will be changed… ROFL!!! although he has no proof for it and is mocking at Shariah and its principles. Alright if that is the case then the wording of the hadith used by Umair is not poetry and even that is a corruption done by Muhsin Khan, here is the proof from Arabic and Umair has absolutely no clue what he is saying therefore he is making a mockery of himself and his Wahabi cult. Ah! I thought that it very easy to fill the truth in a head that is empty…but now I realize that even ‘bhoosa’ has weight and space, and won’t allow the truth to sink into the head. I don’t know why you always forget the rules of translation. Can’t discern why you forget the need to translate. Why you forget that all the words in Arabic are not to be translated literally with the dictionary you have? Specially when the Arabic words are Metaphorical or they contain Proverbs. I had given you a very easy example but alas! A Brelvi mind cannot understand even the easy things. Anyhow, the struggle to trample the fitna continues and I would teach you again. Sep 27 Umair I will again take the example of the proverb in Urdu i.e. ‘Khoda Pahar Nikla Chuha’. If I translate it wrt Brelvi standards then this would give a very awkward translation and you would think that I am directing this translation at you i.e. ‘dug mountain, came out CHUHA’. But we know that we being sensible people are not to translate literally using Brelvi standards, and need to give it the appropriate words: ‘Much Ado About Nothing’. I would give another example to show, that words are not to be interpreted literally, from within this debate when you said: Stop fooling people Umair you have nothing proper to say rather than giving lengthy irrelevant lectures as you said from your own mouth i.e. you are giving a lecture. When did I say it from my own mouth??? Did you see me speaking from my own mouth?? Now should I say that Amir is forger, tampers, blatantly attributes lies, only because I took the bolded words literally??? Don’t you ever think so Amir. We are not Stupid or Brelvis like you. Things should be understood in the context they are used in. Seeking Prophet(saw) Face means asking him to pray for Dua. It is as clear as the fitna of Brelvis. Moreover it is also proven from Bukhari :: Book 172 :: Volume 2 :: Hadith 123 , that the Sahaba used to ask for DUA (not seeking the face) for the Rain. And I had already mentioned the rule of translation in the very beginning that translations are done to explain the meaning not to literally translate. Moreover, translation is only done to explain the meaning in the light of other Quranic verses, ahadith, and the Aqida of Ahl e Sunnah wal Jamaat.

Umair

Just for a moment, if I agree to this Brelvi, that M/H did wrong translation, still we have millions of Salafis who are Arabic and need not the translation. Still those Salafis have never interpreted in the Shirkia Manner that Brelvis interpret. The main aim of Brelvism is only to flourish their Business, because we know that if there is no waseela from the dead, there will be no Peer-Mureed relationship, and when there is no peer-mureed relationship, there will be no shirk, and when there will be no shirk, iblis would get annoyed from the Brelvis, and this is the last thing that the Brelvis want.

Then you said:

Alright if that is the case then the wording of the hadith used by Umair is not poetry and even that is a corruption done by Muhsin Khan, here is the proof from Arabic and Umair has absolutely no clue what he is saying therefore he is making a mockery of himself and his Wahabi cult.

Alright if this is the case—Yes ofcourse this is the case, we don’t literally translate Poetry into something like you ppl do in pursuit of the desire to flourish your business.

I have never said that Umar(ra) didn’t use the ‘WASEELA’(used him as a means) of Abbas(ra). The word ‘Tawassul’ is not a Shirkia word at all. Its just the interpretation of the Sufis that make it Shirkia.

Even Ahl e Sunnah Wal Jamaat uses this Waseela.
We use ‘WASEELA’ of our good deeds to ask Allah.
We would inshallah be provided the ‘WASEELA’(intercession) of the Prophet(saw) by Allah on the Day of Judgement.

Sep 27

Umair

It’s not the word ‘waseela’ that is shirkia, its just the use that the Brelvism have innovated in Islam that is shirk. While we know from this very narration that Wasila of the dead is not the practice of Sahaba. This is the reason that Hazrat Umar(ra) didn’t use the waseela of the Holy Prophet(saw), and instead used the wasila of WaliAllah Hazrat Abbas(ra), because he was from the family of the Prophet(saw) and he was alive at that time.

This very narration proves that the Holy Prophet(saw) had indeed died. There are numerous other proofs from Quran and Ahadith, which I am not getting into at the moment and I would also don’t like you to get into them-don’t get diverted.

You said:
above all from sahih ahadith and Athaar it is proven from sahaba to use Prophet (saw) as Waseela even after his Dhahiri demise, this I can prove with ahadith with completely sahih chains even on the criteria of Bukhari/Muslim.

Blatant lies. Its my challenge to every Brelvi, and I claim that there is no Authentic hadith, where any Sahaba or Tabi did the forbidden act to ask from Holy Prophet(saw) after his demise. But I am really sorry that I cannot ‘BREAK THE BACKBONE OF THE BRELVIS’ because ‘THERE IS NO BACKBONE’. Lols…...

Umair

Important point to note is that we never have denied the presence of the fabricated and Zaeef narrations in Tafsir ibn e Kathir. We have got many more copies of ‘complete’ Tafsir ibn e Kathir, printed by numerous Salafi publishers. One of the link of the salafi site is given by Bro Israr. But we know that which one of the ahadith are fabricated and which are Sahih. This is not the case with the Brelvis, who even take the fabricated narrations to prove their tawassul and other deviant Aqaids. Why do they do that?? Only to show that the weak base of brelvism is based on these fabricated ahadith. Lols.

We have even ‘Summarised Sahih Bukhari’ named ‘Mukhtasar Sahih Bukhari’ by Allama Albani, where many Sahih Ahadith are skipped. Now would a Brelvi say that we have done forgery to Sahih Bukhari??? Waisay I doubt so!!! Lols

We have even ‘Summarised books’ containing only some of Quran Surahs. Now a brelvi would say, that we have done forgery to the Quran?? If yes then they too have done this.

Conclusion is that when brelvi’s own base is not safe, then what does their allegations of ‘forgery’ mean on our own texts. Infact they are just futile attempts of Brelvi fitna.

Though there is no need to further get into his allegations on Tafsir ibn e Kathir, because I have showed him the real problem with brelvism i.e. they cannot differentiate between Abridgement and Forgery. But still I will consider one of his ‘mashhoor incident’ mentioned unded 4:64 in Tafsir ibn e Kathir.

You said:

once again they have removed pages upon pages from it which do not suit their aqida for example in Tafsir of 4:64 Imam Ibn Kathir (rah) narrates a Mashoor incident of Bedouin coming to grave of Prophet (saw) and addressing him directly making him Waseela, there are many more examples.

Sep 27

Umair

Al-Bukhaari said: “This is not to be accepted or followed.”

More Jarrah omitted.

TAMPERING IN TAFSEER IBN E KATHIR????

Again you being a brelvi, commit the same old mistake. We(I think you are the same brelvi) had discussed this fitna of Brelvis on Tafseer ibn e Kathir about two years back, in Zakir Naik community. Bro Saifullah and Bro AbuHafsa had refuted these very claims, and you had disappeared from that topic, as if you had never been born. But now again you again come with the same fitna. I really don’t find the need to refute again. But because you are a guest to our community for a few more days, so I would again show you the right path.

Difference Between Abridgement and Forgery:

Last time you had even FORGED the meaning of Abridgement, only to prove your tawassul. And that too from a fabricated narration.

The text you copy from tafsir.com is an ‘abridged’ version of Tafseer ibn e Kathir.
Abridge means: Reduce in scope while retaining essential elements.

This abridgement is done by none other but we salafis, only to remove the fabricated part present in it, and to present to common people like Brelvis only the authentic part, so that they are not further lead astray and they have a chance to come to the Ahl e Sunnat wal Jamaat. But still Brelvis are recommended that they confirm this abridged part too from us, because there is still a chance to err while understanding it.

Note: Even the Tafseer ibn e Kathir present at the Brelvi site ‘altafseer.com’, is an abridged version(not in the strict sense) of the real Tafsir ibn e Kathir. The real one has much more detail put by none other but our own Scholar Hafiz ibn e Kathir where he has discussed the authenticity of those ahadith that he has placed in the exegesis of Quran. Not to forget that Ibn e Kathir was a Muhaddith himself, not a mukallid-blind follower.

Sep 27

Umair

Do you really think, O Brelvi! that we would keep an act of an IGNORANT BEDOUIN intact in the abridged version of the Tafsir??? Btw, we do have it in our other copies, its only not there in the Abridged Version. We do not base our aqida on such stupidities of Stupids.

I just wondered why would a Brelvi yearn for this ‘Mashoor incident’ of a Stupid Beduin to base his stupid Aqida upon. O Amir! This is just a stupid story, and such stories by stupids ar witnessed till date. But we salafis BEAT all those brelvis who try to bow down to Holy Prophet(saw) grave in Medina.

We cannot allow a Shirkia act right at the place where the Holy Prophet(saw) spent most of his prophethood only to elevate the concept of ‘Oneness of Allah’. O Allah! With what thing I am debating!!

And then I looked for the status of this ‘mashoor incident’ and I wasn’t surprised to know that this mashoor incident doesn’t even have a CHAIN of Narrators.

Would brelvis come to this low level to base their Aqaid with Chainless stories????Hell of Stupidy!!! You yourself have forged fabricated Aqaid, and you brelvis try to find faults in Salafis??? HUH!!

Hazrat Ibn e Umar(ra) took it as MAKRUH to touch the grave of Prophet(saw). (Juzz Muhammad bin Asim As Saqfi Al Asbahani Page 27 with SAHIH Chain).

Imam Ibn e Taymiyya has declared Qabar Parasti(grave worshipping) as the First factor of Shirk.(Aljawab al Bahir page 12)

And he has declared those who call upon the inhabitants of the grave as ‘Ahl us Shirk’.(Al Jawab al Bahir page 12)

Umair

CONCLUSION:

This whole allegation on Salafis was a piece of junk.
I remember two years back, you had been refuted on this Tawassul issue, but you sprung up again, with a new tactic, to attempt to pressurize us into believing the fabricated Tawassul from the Deads. There were only two BASIC problems at your BASE.

First you don’t know the gist of Translation, so you started attacking M/H works.

Secondly, you intentionally used abridged versions to show that this forgery. I am saying ‘intentionally’ because you had been refuted on this very thing two years back.

Remember O Brelvi!! As long as just one Ahl e Hadith is alive, no Brelvi has the guts to attribute a single lie to the Holy Prophet(saw).

Sep 27

Umair

FORGERIES OF BRELVIS:

The Brelvi being refuted, I think it would be best to show him what his own scholars have been doing all the while. Note: I would be using the following words interchangeably:
Forgery, Corruption, Disrespect to Prophet(saw) and Sahaba, Blatant Lies, False Attribution to Prophet(saw) and Sahaba, Blunders, Foolishness etc etc

I have a huge list of the blunders by these Brelvis, but I won’t be providing the whole list, because I cannot waste my time on as worthless creature as a Brelvi. I have already lost my precious time of this precious Ramazan.

Note some of the blunders have already been mentioned, where these Brelvis try to make Fabricated narrations as being Hujjat for waseela from the deads. They PRETEND to be Hanfis who do not even take Khabar e Wahid to base their Aqida upon, let alone fabricated ahadith. I am only talking about Hanafi Mazhab, not Imam AbuHanifa(ru).

Blunder NO 1:

Tahir ul Qadri falsely attributes the hadith towards Nabi(saw) that ‘Adam(as) used the WASEELA of the Holy Prophet(saw) for Prayer’. (Mustadrak al Hakim 615/2, Dalail Annabuwah lil Bahqi 489/5).

After falsely attributing this fabricated hadith towards the Holy Prophet(saw), he falsely attributes a lie towards Imam Al Behqi and says: ‘Imam Behqi has called this narration as Sahih’.(Al Arbaeen Fi Fazail Annabi Al Ameen page 55).

I can’t understand why Qadri associated this lie towards Imam Behqi who has said the exact opposite. After quoting this narration, Imam Behqi writes ‘The chain has Tafarrud of Abdur Rahman bin Zaid and he is Zaeef’(Daalil An nabuwah 489/5’.

Don’t know how this Qadri saw the opposite. Dream??
What else can they do to prove their Tawassul, if they don’t do FABRICATIONS and FORGERIES.

Sep 27

Umair

Tahir Qadri does the same in another of his book Aqida e Tauheed aur Haqiqat e Shirk Page 266 and says Imam Behqi has declared it Sahih. Point to note is that the simple ignorant brelvis such as Amir are easily mislead by such Big Lies of their so called Scholars.

Hafiz Zahbi refutes Imam Hakim in Talkhis Al Mustadrik and says Rather it is mawdoo’ (fabricated), and ‘Abd al-Rahmaan is not reliable, and I do not know who ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Muslim al-Fahri is.

Al-Haafiz Ibn Hajar agreed with him in Lisaan al-Meezaan.
Al-Bayhaqi said:
‘Abd al-Rahmaan ibn Zayd ibn Aslam is the only one who narrated it with this isnaad, and he is da’eef (weak).

Ibn Katheer agreed with him in al-Bidaayah wa’l-Nihayyah, 2/323.
Details: Silsila tul Ahadis Az Zaifa o Al mozoo’a lil Sheikh al Bani(ru) 37-38/1, H 25

I can’t understand why these brelvis establish their base of their Faith on Fabricated narrations.

Sep 27

Blunder No 5:

This guy, Tahir ul Qadri Kazzab, disrespects our Holy Prophet(saw) by telling his Mardood Dream, where this Qadri says that Holy Prophet(saw) wants ticket to Medina(wasn’t he(saw) hazir nazir?) and back-tickets within Pakistan, our Nabi(saw) wants food management from this brelvi etc etc.
And then even cries to win people's sympathies.

What cheap things these Brelvis do to flourish their business.

I am giving the link of the audio where this qadri narrates his dream to his ignorant mureeds. But listeners are requested not to laugh on this forgery, because this is the least level that a Brelvi can disrespect our Holy Prophet(saw).

http://www.quransunnah.com/darsnew/tausif/TahirQadriOperationTR2.rm

Qadri’s speech is from the 6th minute till 13th.

In the end, I give the link where this Qadri where he is enjoying DANCE PARTY of Brelvis. Only Brelvis watch this DANCE because music and dance is allowed in their brelvis. Salafis requested to avoid the pop music specially in Ramazan. And Amir! This is your place, absolutely suitable only for your type of people. Go and enjoy the dances!!!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8140233373572122742&hl=en

Also note that I have spared Ahmed Raza Khan and his Lies, forgeries, disrespect to the Prophet(saw) and Sahaba and great scholars of Islam. Some of it is already there in the other topic. And lets see how Amir replies.

Sep 27

Umair

ENDNOTES:

The allegations of Amir turned into his own forgeries. His misinterpretation of Arabic, his low level knowledge and his fitna representing his Brelvism being exposed and stand bare. A lot of time has already wasted on this brelvi.
And to avoid more of time wastage, he is ordered to defend the forgeries by Brelvism and then move back to his own community.

Whether he can defend Brelvistic Forgeries or not, this is not at all important. Because the works of Brelvism are the dust of our feet, no matter how forged they are and no matter how much this Brelvi is successful in defending his Brelvism.

And again it is emphasized that Amir doesn’t go haywire, and only tries to defend his sect.

May Allah forgive us all for all this and save us to waste our lives on issues so trivial as these. May Allah guide us all.

Sep 28

|-- Thinker --|

it seems that Amir is the only guy on earth who understnd Arabic

Sep 28

Loud As A

Sep 28

|-- Thinker --|

@Umair

tumhare himat ko salam peesh karta hoon.
breelvism pay research kisi Himat walay ka he kaam ha.. i cant find anything boring then that.

anyway tahir ul Qadri wala part Zabardat ha it wil also help me in future to make breelvies run.

Sep 30

Aamir

Deception of Umair!

Sep 30

|-- Thinker --|

LOLZ

BILKUL HE ANDHOON MAIN ANDHA RAJA see link

the proverb is ANDHON MAIN KANA RAJA ( but yahan KANA bh koi nahi)

http://www.orkut.com/CommMsgs.aspx?cmm=14994000&tid=2555687684241119711&na=2&nst=20

r u amir liaquat?

Sep 30

Aamir

Poor salafis are down to their cheap jokes now, Israr I fully understand your desperate situation, dont worry I will make it more worse

Umair claims he does not want to waste time over sunnis in Ramadan, what is he wasting his time upon then? praying 8 Rakah Tarawih as Bidah, Albaani has fooled them by misinterpreting the hadith of Tahhajjud too... hahahha, Im trying to save you from Bidah Umair!

Umair do not forget to give me exact reference of the hadith from Sahih Muslim which you quoted!

Sep 30

Anonymous

It would be a very good thing if this can be discussed after Ramadan for surely this is waste of time...not just of the brothers who are participating and of the brother who is moderating but others as well...as I see many are following this thread closely.
So heed, and let this wait till Eid.
Brother Umair, good decision....do stick to it please.

Assalamualaikum
Amina

Sep 30

Omair[Reserved]

@Aamir

The tone in which you speak reveals your disgraceful level of character, you really have an ego problem. I wonder if this is the true face of the so-called aashiq-e-rasools.

Assumptions, mockery, scoffing, ridiculing and offending someone is one of the ugly traits mostly found among people who are bent on rejecting the truth. True muslims are humble with their wonderful display of ethics, learned from the teachings of rasoolullah (صلی اللہ علیھ وآلھ وسلم). Now, decide yourself, if such kind of belittling others is against sunnah or in conciliation with sunnah.

********************************************************
'Abd Allah reported that the Prophet of Allah, upon him be peace, said, "A believer is not a fault-finder and is not abusive, obscene, or course."
(Hadith - Bukhari's Book of Manners #313, Ahmad, Ibn Hibban, and Hakim)
********************************************************
Quran, Sunnah and Understanding of Sahaabah... Good
Desires, Innovations and Blind Following... Baad
********************************************************

Sep 30

Aamir

I was expecting the Salafi Bias!

Well we have one-sided people replying and finding out my mistakes, whereas they have forgotten that Umair has falsely accused me of shirk, This false accusation has only returned to him for sure, My tone is nothing as compared to people who use khawarji approach like salafis use. If You say It is a waste of time to reveal forgeries of Wahabi sect then Insha ALLAH I expect reward from Allah as to safeguard ummah from liars/forgers is necessary even if it be Month of Ramadan, Omair as you say in your message that desires, Innovation and blind following bad, this is exactly what has been proven here that you salafis blindly stick to your desires defending clear cut corruptions/forgeries to our Islamic texts... these forgeries are still there and umair was unable to write a single legitimate refutation, all he had done was run off tangents right from the beginning by asking irrelevant questions and then diverting topic towards other issues like Tawassul etc (though he has been proven wrong on Tawassul too).,calling teachings of Prophet (saw), Sahaba, Ulama as shirk is a worst crime, so o dear wahabis look with both of your eyes open before pointing out mistakes of others.

Important point: A person who considers ulama who have called the hadith of Ibn Masud (RA) to be sahih as a forgery is nothing but ignorant and do not expect him to be your savior, he kept on claiming he does not want to waste time (i.e. it was his excuse to sidetrack) but still he kept on posting, now when he is left with no fuel he wants a recession period.

I can call in people to support me too but Umair unlike you guys who are afraid to accept truth (i.e. reject clear forgeries of Salafis and become proper adhrents), this is proof of me not following my ego.

Confronting alone Alhamdulillah and the point has indeed been made!W

Oct 1

Hamza

As salamu Alaykum

Good show brother Amir.

I am new to this forum, and haven't had the chance to go through the whole debate. Just a little something:

Dear brother Umair, in your zeal and its concomitant ignorance, you declared Abu Ayub Al Ansari (RA) a Mushrik. I am glad Amir corrected you on that one.

So, now, please go and make tawba, rectify your behavior, and learn the proper deen. Come out of this "Shirkphobia" which is the hallmark of neo-salafism. Otherwise, one day you'll stop respecting your parents out of "wasawas" of shirk.

Wassalams,

Hamza.

Oct 1

Abu Mus'ab

Oct 1

Saifullah

@Aqsa

i checked the rules,its no where written that member needs to ask a mod to moderate the thread,i saw, some mod deleted my msg and msg of israr but kept that offensive post
May have been confusion or just plain oversight! Furthermore, the moderators are also human beings and negligence is a fault that occurs in almost all humans – you could have pointed it instead of being accusatory and using a flame (…gather some courage…)

i thought u created the poll as a mod or owner coz how come a member decides which debates to be alowed and which not.
In case you didn’t know my naïve sister, a poll can be created by anyone. Messages can only be sent by the moderators. Furthermore, the poll question doesn’t mention anywhere that I would take a decision based upon the result of the poll. Observant people would be able to understand the meaning of the poll

The Cover Page of text of The Noble Qur'an by Muhsin / Hilali reads:
"Interpretation of the Meanings of the Noble Qur'an"

a) it is an interpretation, not a translation.
the purpose is to aid the interpretation of Qur'anic Arabic and not to hurl a word-for-word Arabic-to-English translation at the reader.
the text uses modern English language and avoids confusing Biblical words to help readers with low level of familiarity with English language.

b) it combines various meanings (note: plural), rather that just a single meaning (hence, it fails to entertain the barelvi mind).

@Amir: If you want entertainment, read Ahmad Reza's "translation". That shall keep you happy.

Oct 2

@abu..
i agree with brother.and willing to cease this thread until the end of ramadan as the schedule is too tight so cant able to read a single thread...

Jazak ALLAH

Oct 2

Aamir

Excuses of those who don't have answers!

If Umair has vanished by using a clever excuse then this does not mean we should cease revealing forgeries of Salafis, Umair is not some monk that he is spending 24/7 in Ibadah, Alhamdulillah we are Muslims too and we are spending the time of Ramadan properly aswell, Had Salafis been on truth then for their adherents defending their absurdities would have been the primary goal and a deed deserving Thawaab, Umair keeps on coming back with his typical so called assignments (i.e. his tactic to claim as If he knows something though he doesn't) then he vanishes for long again, I have experienced in my debates with Qadiyanis/Shi'ites/Wahabis that when they are left with nothing they adopt such techniques.

The Forgeries of Salafis to our Islamic texts have been soundly established with proofs, now whether Salafis receive true guidance or not It is in the hands of Allah.

Wassalam

Oct 2

Loud As A

@Aamir
Brother Nobody is stopping you. Just asking for ramadan break. Inshallah you will be given chance for everything you want to share.

Wslam

Oct 2

Abu Mus'ab

Aamir,

I think your answer to forestalling this discussion is 'No'

The points that you raised are pointing towards the discussion of the question of Ilm al Ghayb of the Prophet (Peace And Blessings of Allah be upon him). Am I right?

If I am not, can you please summarize your points.

With regards to the point about the translation, I guess this is more a matter of linguistics than a matter of denying that the Prophet (Peace And Blessings of Allah be upon him) had been given the knowledge of a certain matter.

If I said that this statement is like the translation of Suratul Asr, Ayah 2

'Verily! Man is in loss'

So if I look at this statement singularly, then it spells certain doom for mankind. As it does not place any restriction. However, only after reading the next Ayah is everything clearer.

Therefore, the statement that the knowledge is only with my Lord, except whatever he has taught to mankind can be understood in the same way, can it not?

Also, I think you should give Umair the benefit of the doubt. Apart from Ramadhaan, he also mentioned that he has studies. Now you can't argue with that.

'The Forgeries of Salafis to our Islamic texts have been soundly established with proofs'

I think this statement isn't fair. This thread hasn't really been concluded. So the wise person would defer judgement. If you've come to just post and leave, then I guess you might consider using this statement. And we will probably not agree. But if you're going to stick around and discuss (which you already have) the points you raised, then I suppose this is declaring victory before the battle has ended.

Abu Mus'ab

Oct 2

omer

after 124 posts in this topic all i can see is none of wahabis (self proclaimed salafis) have given any refutation against the points aamir has raised.

all we can see is:

1 - aamir behavior is bad (forgery of Quran is not bad at all for these wahabis but aamir behavior is bad that he is exposing them)

2 - this is interpretation not translation ( even if it is interpretation it is wrong)

3 - barailvis have done forgeries aswell (nothing is there to post just a lie towards barailvis)

4 - we cant waste time on barailvis. (can waste time forgering Quran but cant answer muslims why these forgeries are done)

5 - lam excuses like moderator deleting posts, barailvis will never understand, wahabis are right etc etc.

thanks aamir for showing us the reality of neo khawarij i.e wahabis and their by products

Oct 2

Abu Mus'ab

Thank you Omer for your 'valuable' inputs. However, this discussion is going in a slightly different direction if Allah wills it.

By the way, I'm pretty sure you read all the 124 posts before commenting.

Bhaaiiyo I have read everything and neither am I asking this all for ma ownself but the problem is, same as Dr Zakir nayek community, this thread is also becoming a fish market.
I am not asking bruv Aamir to rewrite everything....all he has to do is...copy paste fivve points and ask for direct answers....any irrelevant thing in reply to deviate the interests and focuses should go in lack of the only chance of justification being given to Umair....simple!. Sakoon maaro yaar, this way no onez gonna get nothing, coz at the moment I am desperate to have the justification by Umair, which he has not been able to bring, but because of this all ill-mannered fuss one cannot easily judge that who is lacking and where....so let it all be as simple and explicit as possible!

Oct 3

Muhammad

@ All

Assalaamu 'alaykum wa RahmatuLlah.
My dear brothers in faith, I would like all those who are involved in this discussion to read this post:
http://www.orkut.com/CommMsgs.aspx?cmm=6601920&tid=2557283022013188691
Truly there are many benefits in this beautiful advise given by our Noble Shaykh... I urge all of you to go through the post patiently and try to implement it as far as possible.
May Allaah rectify the affairs of Muslims. Aameen.
Wa Sallallahu wa Sallama 'alaa nabiyyinaa Muhammad wa 'alaa aalihi wa As-haabihi Ajma'een.
Wassalaamu 'alaikum wa RahmatuLlah.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Imaam Maalik (rahima-hullaah) said:

"The latter part of this Ummah will not be rectified except by that which rectified its former part."
[ash-Shifaa of Qaadee 'Iyyaadh, (2/676)]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oct 3

Aamir

@Abu Mus'ab

Brother Abu Mus'ab said: I think your answer to forestalling this discussion is 'No'

Abu Mus’ab I always wanted this discussion to continue under proper rules decided mutually by both parties and also in a neutral environment, unfortunately my posts were deleted, people kept on writing in-between by even discussing other issues (including you), Umair rejected to follow the guidelines offered by me (though I followed his in the beginning and It was told that my posts will be deleted If I did not reply to counter question of Umair, Maybe this was planned to divert the topic, but Alhamdulillah the discussion got back on track once again when Umair’s commentary was proven to be irrelevant)

You asked: The points that you raised are pointing towards the discussion of the question of Ilm al Ghayb of the Prophet (Peace And Blessings of Allah be upon him). Am I right?

If you want to take it that way then fair enough and the proofs which I showed have that dimension aswell, you are also most welcome to discuss Prophet (saw)’s abundant Ilm al Ghayb with me on any other forum, however over here I had just clarified the right understanding of term Amri Rabi in light of overwhelming Muhaqiqeen. In order to defend Muhsin/Hilali Umair made another mistake of accusing the Prophet (saw) not having the knowledge of Ruh, but If he made that statement in ignorance then you should re-read my reply when I clarified (here I post it again) : The ayah itself says And of knowledge, you (mankind) have been given only a little.[/n] If Umair’s stance is right then he has put in a contradiction because If the knowledge of spirit is only with Allah then why does it say ahead that: you (mankind) have been given only a little, this makes the context of ayah wrong therefore the proper translation of Amri Rabbi would be: Command of the Lord as done by Ijma

Oct 3

Aamir

Continued...

You said: With regards to the point about the translation, I guess this is more a matter of linguistics than a matter of denying that the Prophet (Peace And Blessings of Allah be upon him) had been given the knowledge of a certain matter.

Abu Mus’ab linguistically Umair has been proven wrong over his translations, so Umair brought in Metaphorical aspect of Islam, this amazed me and should amaze you too because Salafis interpret the Mutashabihaat like Istawa of Allah literally, his hands,feet,shin.eyes and other attributes literally and reject any form of metaphorical explanation over them, the forgery of Salafis to Tafsir Ibn Kathir has been proven in this regaerd too. Kindly explain the reason for these double standards and what proof do you have for Bi-Wajihi to be translated metaphorically (although I have proven from other translations what it means)

You used the ayah of Surah al Asr i.e. 'Verily! Man is in loss' to justify: the statement that the knowledge is only with my Lord, except whatever he has taught to mankind can be understood in the same way, can it not?

This is an analogy my friend i.e. If in Surah al Asr something is mentioned in a specific fashion then here the same method will be used too, however what you forgot is that the ayah containing the term Amri Rabi has made a whole point in itself, whereas the 1st ayah of Surah al Asr is connected with the next, but still if we read the next Ayah i.e.17:86, then it further explains what Ruh means in this case

Quran states: And if We willed We could withdraw that which We have revealed unto thee…(17:86)

According to some eminent Islaaf the Ruh here refers to inspiration as rightly explained by Maududi and this is proven from other ayahs of Quran too as was proven before.

Oct 4

Abu Mus'ab

Brother Aamir,

Jazakallah for responding. I think we'll take this discussion in the direction of what Mushin Khan and Hilali may have intended rather than what Umair said.

With regard to the issue of Ilm al Ghayb, I was only wondering if this was the direction in which the discussion was headed. However, you seem to be treating these issues separately. So we'll keep it that way for the time being. Let's sort out one issue at a time here if Allah wills.

After reading your points a number of questions have sprung to my mind.

1. We know that the scope of Tafseer is large and the Mufassireen have differed on the interpretation of various passages from the Qur'an? How much room do we have to differ on such an issue?

2. When you present criticism of a certain Tafseer, on what basis is the argument being made? I mean, are you scholar of Tafseer? Have you studied these sciences? If yes, can you please verify your credentials? If not, I am assuming you are taking reference from a scholar who has done this research and you are merely citing them here?

If the case is the latter, can you please provide a citation.

The reason behind asking this question is not to brush off your arguments but rather to provide credibility to them.

I pray you will answer these questions with the same sincerity with which I've posted them.

Jazakallah for taking out the time to do this.

Abu Mus'ab

Oct 4

Aamir

Honesty of Salafis put on stakes!

Abu Mus'ab, You are trying to start your own little debate over here, your questions were answered last time, however replying to you further will un-necessarily make people miss the actual point of discussion i.e. Salafis have been fraudulent in their translations, in proving so I cited many other proofs.

Your profile says you are from Saudi Arabia, I am assuming that you would be knowing Arabic, tell me "honestly" what do these mean?

Note: Honestly!!

a)بوجهه

b)وهو إمرارها كما جاءت من غير تكييف

c)والظاهر المتبادر إلى أذهان المشبهين منفي عن الله،

d)اعلم أنه ينبغي لكل من حجّ أن يتوجه إلى زيارة رسول اللّه صلى اللّه عليه وسلم، سواء كان ذلك طريقه أو لم يكن،

e)اللَّهُمَّ افْتَحْ عَليَّ أبْوَابَ رَحْمَتِكَ وَارْزُقْنِي في زِيارَةِ قَبْرِ

As Umair has asked for recession period, but If you want to make things easy for him then honestly translate the above

Insha ALLAH this will clarify the amount of honesty which Salafis have used for our Islamic texts.

Oct 4

Abu Mus'ab

Aamir,

I haven't even made any points yet so the question of a debate doesn 't occur. It only is sensible to ask a person who's making the claim to cite his credentials or the credentials of the one on whose behalf the claim is being made. That is the trouble with social networking sites such as orkut. Anyone can come and post absolutely anything without restriction.

Also, please point out where my questions were answered. If you could paste them, that would be better. Jazakallah.

Salafis have been fraudulent in their translations, in proving so I cited many other proofs.

The questions are not about what was posted but more importantly, who is posting. I mean we haven't asked you for an introduction. Please answer the questions (which I will post below again)

1. We know that the scope of Tafseer is large and the Mufassireen have differed on the interpretation of various passages from the Qur'an? How much room do we have to differ on such an issue?

2. When you present criticism of a certain Tafseer, on what basis is the argument being made? I mean, are you a scholar of Tafseer? Have you studied these sciences? If yes, can you please verify your credentials? If not, I am assuming you are taking reference from a scholar who has done this research and you are merely citing them here?

If the case is the latter, can you please provide a citation.

As you can see, this is absolutely in relation to the topic and there is no diversion at all. However, we want to be systematic and organized when dealing with an issue. (By not being so, we've seen how the discussion went nowhere at the start)

If I were to post a refutation of, say, Wahdatul Wajood, then I would have to be someone who has knowledge of both the topic and the proper refutation. However, if I don't have this knowledge, then I must cite the scholar who has made this refutation. (like Shakhul Islam Ibn Taymiyyah for instance) This is merely an example to make things clear.

Oct 4

Abu Mus'ab

Finally, you are asking me to translate something that is beyond my scope and knowledge. I am not a Mufassir.

Abu Mus'ab

PS. I am sure if we are honest and forthcoming with these issues, then the people reading this thread will not miss the point but will only leave with a better understanding of the subject if Allah wills it.

Oct 4

omer

@Abu Musab

sorry to say your msg seems to be like this

this

that

here

there

north

south

east

west

up

down

so aamir is not suppose to talk all this because he is not scholar. i know arabic but i wont tell like always

dont you have some shame?? when american or jewish sites come over net with wrong translation or interpretation of Quran it is being emailed to everyone and muslim countries ban those sites

now when wahabis have made corruption in Quran dont you think if a person is telling the right translation we should listen to him instead of giving lame excuses you have posted above??

may be now on americans and jews will use same your excsues like if you are not scholar than dont say their sites are wrong and read and believe them

instead of defending being a muslim you should accept the truth and do your research

Oct 4

Aamir

For Umair who might be reading this!

Nicely put brother Omer!

Now I also agree that this thread should be closed till umair returns, so that he does not get baffled up when he wants to reply, he has a long period to do preperations, Nothing from umair will be accepted if he does not reply in totality to my posts starting from : Salafi talking about Metaphors

http://www.orkut.com/CommMsgs.aspx?cmm=6601920&tid=2556682274112821727&na=4&nst=84&nid=6601920-2556682274112821727-2557791271175870943

One extra thing which Umair can (rather should) answer me before his recession ends is that I am curious to see the hadith in"Sahih Muslim" which he showed, and I do not want any chain of it because the hadith will be from Sahih Muslim, after this Umair should turn towards his own disrespectful words for Prophet (saw) i.e. him calling other Muslims to be jeleous as Prophet (saw) does not have the knowledge of Ruh, Naudhobillah, he should read my complete rebuttal to that aswell.

Important Note: Noone else should post in this thread

Oct 4

Abu Mus'ab

Omer,

I was/am not addressing you. Please allow Aamir to reply.

Aamir,

I ask you again to answer these questions. The moderators will decide which threads to close and who will post and who wont. Right now, the impression you are leaving is of one who's afraid to back up his own claims. But I will always prefer to think otherwise. Because I think you've brought these points and put in some research (hopefully) All I'm asking is for you to back these claims with some authority. I assume you are a traditionalist. If this is the case, then you of all people should realize the importance of scholarly authority.

I ask you again with all sincerity to answer my questions.

Umair will answer if/when he feels like it. For now, if someone is willing to discuss this issue with you, then please show courtesy and respond. Umair's posts (and your's) are available for all to see. So don't worry about that discussion for the time being.

Jazakallah,

Abu Mus'ab

Back with the Bang!

Do not worry my friend, Im once again right here after being unjustly banned

, The Blessed month of Ramadan has gone, even Eid is a day of past now, but Umair is absent like darkness is absent in bright sunlight (Im using such words so that Umair shows up even if he does not want to)

Oct 20

Umair

TWO PROOFS FOR WASEELA---OR-----TWO MORE FORGERIES OF BRELVISM?

This is a worst lie by these Wahabis, Umair If you are not Khawarji then prove these 2 Ahadith to be weak (let alone Mawdo, I challenge you to prove them weak only)

Nice Amir. Nice attempt.

Hadith No.1:(After Zahiri Passing away of Prophet saw)

The hadith from 'Uthman ibn Hunayf that a man repeatedly visited Uthman ibn Affan (Allah be pleased with him) concerning something he needed, but Uthman paid no attention to him or his need.

The man met Ibn Hunayf and complained to him about the matter – [this being after the wisal of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) and after the caliphates of Abu Bakr and Umar] - so Uthman ibn Hunayf, [who was one of the Companions who collected hadiths and was learned in the religion of Allah] said:

"Go to the place of ablution and perform ablution (wudu), then come to the mosque, perform two rak'as of prayer therein, and say:

'O Allah, I ask You and turn to You through our Prophet Muhammad, the Prophet of mercy; O Muhammad (Ya Muhammad), I turn through you to my Lord, that He may fulfill my need,' …. [Imam Baihaqi in Dalail an Nabuwa 6:167-168 and others)

I challenge Umair to prove the sanad of this hadith to be only weak

Sorry Amir I lose this challenge. I am incapable to prove this hadith weak. You Win! I request others if they can prove it Zaeef. But I would rather advise them not to attempt because Muhaqiqin say that this hadith is Sahih[This is what I did—more details below].
But does this mean that Brelvis have found a PROOF to justify their waseela through deads(who can't even listen to them)???
Ofcourse not!! Just a little insight or a re-read of the above hadith will make it evident – the extent to which these Brelvistic wiliness can work.

Oct 20

Umair

Just note the red words above in the brackets—and the forgeries of the Brelvis will be crystal clear.

O Amir! You may attempt to deceive me but you can’t deceive Muhaqqiqin, and above all Allah-the All Knower. I may allow you to maintain your fabricated aqida inspite of these forgeries, but remember Allah knows every inch of what you do!

You must have proper proofs for your waseela through deads, otherwise it is a aqida that is Biddat at the least level and Shirk at the extreme. Note: After deleting the forgeries added by Amir in red above-there remains nothing wrong in the hadith because waseela as long as Holy Prophet(saw) was alive is proven and understood in the right meanings by Muhadissin and other Ahl e hadith.

The Drama of the Forgeries by Amir and Brelvis isn’t over yet!!

Just after quoting the above forgeries, Aamir quotes:

meanwhile, I would like to quote Imam Baihaqi and Imam Dhahabi’s quote on the Kitab Dalal an Nabuwah of Imam Baihaqi

Imam Baihaqi himself said in introduction of Dalal an Nabuwah that he only included sound narrations in this book.

Should I say you are the liar or the one who told you this is a liar? The fact is that Imam Behqi HIMSELF added Zaeef Ahadith within this book and then HIMSELF said that these ahadith are Zaeef!! One example is the hadith of ‘waseela by Adam(as)’. Imam Behqi adds this hadith in Dalail an Nabuwah and then himself says: ‘The chain has Tafarrud of Abdur Rahman bin Zaid and he is Zaeef ’(Daalil An nabuwah 489/5’. This is also discussed under Brelvis’ Blunder No 1 where Tahir ul Qadri blatantly lies and says that Imam Behqi has declared this hadith sahih. Astaghfirullah. Only this time it is Amir who attributes a lie towards Imam Behqi.

Forgery upon forgery, lie upon lie!!

Oct 20

Umair

Then you said:

Imam Dhahabi (rah) says about Imam Bahaqi’s Dalail an Nabuwah: You must take what is in it (the Dala'il), for it consists entirely(Kull) of guidance and light."(Mafahim yajib an tusahhah p. 47).

There is nothing wrong with the quotation of Imam Zahbi(ru). This book truly is a light only if you don’t ascribe lies towards Imam Behqi. Leave the wasila thru deads concept and you would see the Beauty of Tauheed-the real light.

BRELVISTIC SECOND HADITH(FORGERY):

Imam Ibn Hajr al Asqalani (rah) showed this following Hadith in proof of Tawassul being always Jaiz through the Dhaat of Prophet (saw), he mentioned in Fath al Bari (2:495) as
وروى ابن أبي شيبة بإسناد صحيح (i.e. Narrated by Ibn Abi Shaybah with Sahih Isnad)

Malik ad-Dar (RA) has related: The people were gripped by famine during the tenure of 'Umar (bin al-Khattab). Then a man walked up to the Prophet's grave and said, "O Messenger of Allah, please ask for rain from Allah for your Ummah who is in dire straits." Then the man saw the Prophet (SAW) in dream. The Prophet (SAW) said to him, "Go over to 'Umar, give him my regards and tell him that the rain will come to you. And tell 'Umar that he should be on his toes, he should be on his toes (he should remain alert)." Then the Companion went over to see 'Umar and passed on to him the tidings. On hearing this, 'Umar broke into a spurt of crying. He said, "O Allah, I exert myself to the full until I am completely exhausted." (Related by Ibn Abi Shaybah in al-Musannaf (12:31-2#12051); Bayhaqi, Dalail-un-nubuwwah (7:47)]

ANALYSIS:

The chain with which Hafiz ibn e Hajr narrates has a narrator whose real name is Sulaiman. He is a Mudallis and narrates it with Ann, with no proof of any hearing.
Thus this hadith is Zaeef and Brelvis are requested to find another proof for wasila through deads.

Oct 20

|-- Thinker --|

i consider its the most Useless Debate Dat Falan Scholar right this and this and did This n this ..
Esp. for SALAFIES this is the most Useless COmment
bcoz we beleive that "they are all fallible" we says if salafiyyah are wrong about something, and it is quite possible you cant follow them blindly
on day of judgement you cant make such excuses your account is with Allah you are resposible to Allah for what you do in this life

like if TAHIR ul QADRI do Dance on Some MAZAR this doesnt mean that ALL breelvis r DANCERS... but if some breelvi wil say that he did Right this wil mean dat he is also DANCER

So better to talk on Issues Rather then talking about Personalities

Oct 20

Umair

Moreover a still careful look at this hadith will make it appear that Nauzubillah Sahaba(ra) also used to find wasila through deads[given that this hadith is not zaeef].

The name Malik ad-Dar (RA) may suggest that he is a sahabi. Atleast this is what Amir wanted him to be. But by the analysis by Muhadissin and Muhaqqiqin this Malik ad Dar is MAJHOOL. I wonder when did Brelvis start putting (RA) with Majhools. They do it with raza khan’s name-(Astaghfirullah), and I am waiting when will they start doing the same with Qadri’s. I still wonder why didn’t they put (RA) with the ignorant Beduin in Tafseer ibn Kathir—the Mashhoor incident of Beduin(RA)

using wasila of the deads.

So Amir don’t prove this fabricated belief through the beliefs of IGNORANTS and MAJHOOLS. If you are so sure of your fabricated aqaid then why can’t you find a proof from Sahaba??

You people are so impulsive to raise the status of the Holy Prophet(saw) as that of Allah’s. And you people raise the status of Majhoools to Sahaba. You people raise the status of Raza Khans and Qadris to scholars of Islam. You people have no gist of Islam. You people don’t understand the Tauheed and recognize Allah. This forum is absolutely not suitable for a Brelvi. The best place that I recommend you is the feet of your Peers at shirk-centers. Lay there and chant Allah hoo Allah WHO?

Just a glance of what I will do to you Umair!

Umair Do not even dare to delete any of your posts, You have yet again not given a single legitimate answer, I had assured you that I will turn towards your assertion of forgeries to Ahlus Sunnah only after you had answered to forgeries of Salafis properly, Although you have accepted your defeat inbetween the lengthy irrelevant post you made, but I will still not make life easy for you, because Salafi fitnah has to be destroyed completely, stop running towards moderators begging them indirectly to ban me, Your defeat is evident to all honest people now!

"Anyways I ask you this one last time"
Number. 1

Imam al Hafidh Ibn Kathir (rah) said: وهو إمرارها كما جاءت من غير تكييف

Which means: (namely) to let it pass as it has come, without saying how it is meant

Salafi liars did this corruption: Surely, we accept the apparent meaning of, Al-Istawa

Imam Ibn Kathir (rah) exposed your Mujasmi sect again by saying: والظاهر المتبادر إلى أذهان المشبهين منفي عن الله،

Meaning: the outward (literal) meaning that comes to the minds of anthropomorphists is negated of Allah

Salafi liars forged it like this: We also believe that the meaning that comes to those who equate Allah with the creation is to be rejected

Note: The Arabic says “THE OUTWARD (LITERAL) MEANING (والظاهر المتبادر)”, Imam Ibn Kathir (rah) was student of your so called shaykh ul Islam during his early years, here he is refuting your Mujasmi sect and you wahabis on top of that have forged his Tafsir!

Number. 2

Answer sensibly regarding the corruption to Kitab al Adhkar of Imam Nawawi (Rahimuhullah) by Salafis. After this I will Insha ALLAH refute your lies about 2 Sahih ahadith which I showed, though you accepted your defeat openly on the first one, plus I will yet again refute your feeble stance over defending Muhsin Khan!

Oct 21

Aamir

The countdown!

I will give you only 3 more days to write on the above 2 corruptions, If you fail to do so then It will be yet another defeat to Wahabi/Khawarji sect

However after 3 days I will still reply to the points you raised, because unlike you I will not find excuses to run away!

Countdown of Days has begun (Even if you write volumes irrelevant to what is asked above, then still you would lose the days)

Days Passed: 1

Oct 22

Abu Mus'ab

Here are three ways to go about this discussion:

1. Umair responds to Aamir and vice versa and the discussion continues

2. Both Umair and Aamir say they want to close their case and discuss no further (for whatever reasons.. waste of time, no sense of direction etc) and we will close the thread.

3. If Umair wants, I will carry the discussion forward with Aamir.
Aamir are you game?

I think this discussion started off on the wrong footing not in terms of Akhlaaq but in terms of the topic being discussed. I will spare the details for now.

Just in case, if point 3 is the way to go, then this is a note to Aamir that don't think that Umair is escaping. He has taken the time to respond to you, so appreciate that. If you can't, then I think Umair is right when he says that you're wasting everyone's time. Also, his (and your) posts are available for all to see. So no one's escaping there.

Another small hint: Just because someone goes in to the scientific community and says Einstein is wrong doesn't mean we'll accept what he says. The first thing we look for in the accuser is credentials. Get the hint?

Abu Mus'ab

Oct 22

Aamir

Abu Mus'ab you stay out of this, By the way the 3 points you raised gives a hint towards one Wahabi trying to save another drowning Wahabi, anyways I definitely don't want to end this even if Umair's fuel has finished and he is just jerking to and fro

Oct 24 (6 days ago)

Aamir

Showing things umpteenth time!

Umair said: Anyhow I will again reply to Imam Nawawi's Kitab al Azkar and Tafsir ibn e Kathir case very briefly:

Then he said: You are copying it from Abridged version, and abridgement is just the summary and the disemmination of the correct and relevant part of any book. Are you satisfied now??

What a Lame answer, this itself proves that you have not answered anything properly, rather you are deliberately ignoring the 2 things which I asked you above, these 2 have proven decisively that Wahabis are forgers of Islamic texts, thus are cunning liars and self proclaimed revivers of Deen though they are nothing but nincompoops.

Although 3 days have passed and you have completely failed to answer properly, But I will make my final post to you, Tomorrow Insha ALLAH I will refute your last detailed posts too (i.e. in which you went towards different hadith and also deemed a sahih 2nd hadith to be weak) I know you do not have the guts to face truth and you are blinded in your love of Wahabism therefore even If I present million proofs to you, you will never accept, It requires an honest heart to seek truth, its not your fault Umair … May Allah Guide and Forgive you!!

Number. 1 (I had shown exact Arabic then highlighted salafi corruption, then showed proper translation)

Here I show it umpteenth time!

Under Surah al A’raf Verse 54 (7:54) Imam Al Hafidh Ibn Kathir (Rahimuhullah) whom wahabis acclaim to be student of Ibn Taymiyyah (Al Mujasmi) and consider his tafsir to be most reliable tafsir of Quran.

Continued...

Oct 24 (6 days ago)

Aamir

Explaining in detail once again!

He Writes:

وأما قوله تعالى: { ثُمَّ ٱسْتَوَىٰ عَلَى ٱلْعَرْشِ } فللناس في هذا المقام مقالات كثيرة جداً ليس هذا موضع بسطها، وإنما نسلك في هذا المقام مذهب السلف الصالح مالك والأوزاعي والثوري والليث بن سعد والشافعي وأحمد وإسحاق بن راهويه وغيرهم من أئمة المسلمين قديماً وحديثاً، وهو إمرارها كما جاءت من غير تكييف ولا تشبيه ولا تعطيل، والظاهر المتبادر إلى أذهان المشبهين منفي عن الله، لا يشبهه شيء من خلقه و
{ لَيْسَ كَمِثْلِهِ شَىْءٌ وَهُوَ ٱلسَّمِيعُ ٱلْبَصِيرُ }
[الشورى: 11]

This is total refutation of Wahabis today, Imam al Hafidh (Rahimuhullah) has rejected literal interpretation of Istawa (i.e. Allah’s establishment), for more details on Mutashabihaat and explanation of righteous scholars vist this link where I explained it in detail

http://www.orkut.com/CommMsgs.aspx?cmm=370772&tid=2540285059639302623

Khayr Imam writes first: وهو إمرارها كما جاءت من غير تكييف

This explicitly and clearly means: (namely) to let it pass as it has come, without saying how it is meant

Whereas Salafis forgers deceived likes of you in this fashion. They attributed lies upon Imam Ibn Kathir (rah) by saying: Surely, we accept the apparent meaning of, Al-Istawa

Even If we forgive the Wahabis in this case (though there cannot even an assumption on forgeries of salafis over here) and allow them to corrupt our great texts, then the same Ibn Kathir (rah) says ahead:

والظاهر المتبادر إلى أذهان المشبهين منفي عن الله

This is complete rejection of taking apparent meanings of such ayahs, Imam himself used the words: the outward (literal) meaning that comes to the minds of anthropomorphists is negated of Allah

I know umair you cannot ever answer this, and you are afraid to ask even some other Arabic speaking person because Im sure you know from inside that Wahabis are indeed forgers of Islamic texts.

Oct 24 (6 days ago)

Aamir

Explaining in detail once again!

Number.2

Imam al Nawawi (Rahimuhullah) said:

Know that ”EVERYONE” who performs the hajj “SHOULD SET OUT” to visit the “MESSENGER” of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace), whether it is on one’s way or not, for visiting him (Allah bless him and give him peace) is one of the most important acts of worship, the most rewarded of efforts, and best of goals.

They not only deleted his whole sentences but also changed the wording to

Know that it is PREFERABLE, for WHOEVER WANTS to visit the MOSQUE of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace), [DELETION]

Abu Musa’ab don’t worry I will soon make you a game like this too

Oct 24 (6 days ago)

Aamir

The Debate finishes!

Days Passed: 3

Umair do not reply now, You are a gone case and you have clearly failed to defend the forgeries of Salafis, the link you posted of scrapbook opens our own scrapbooks, you cannot do anything properly Umair.

Await my detailed reply regarding the 2 Absolutely sahih Ahadith which I showed, plus so called forgeries of Ahlus Sunnah which you claimed to have found, I would not vanish for whole month like you did, I will make a whole post in detail Insha ALLAH.

Salam upon those who accept righteous guidance!

@Marij

If you are lurking around, then I have thoroughly read your scraps to umair, I will refute each and every point of yours on the Hadith, I had read these typical wahabi absurdities long time back, Albaani will be proven to be ill-mastered along.

Oct 26 (4 days ago)

Umair

Your posts being ignored by me. Reason being you didn't even try to defend brelvistic blunders made by qadri. Your upcoming posts ignored in advance by me because of the same reason.

If you answer those blunders, then I will put some more of them. And then when we are square then I might answer your two queries regarding tafsir ibn e kathir and kitab al azkar. Waisay Brelvis are very good hijackers of scholars.

Truth is that I have never read these queries of yours all these umpteenth times. Reason being that I had lost interest in you the moment I had figured out that the real aim of yours in this community was to spread the brelvi fitna wasting our time. The first time I figured out was when you intentionally said that M/H have translated Amri Rabbi as 'one of the things'. I wasn't even expecting it from a 5 year old brelvi.

Your comments regarding the two ahadith are not welcomed by me. The only reason being that you are a brelvi. There is a 100% chance that you say that falaan scholar has deemed this hadith sahih, but while going back to the original copy we see the opposite. This is witnessed in Brelvistic Blunder/forgery # 1 where Qadri attributes a lie towards Imam Behqi. That is why the info provided by brelvis is unreliable and needs a check that too needs a lot of time.

The only chance that you have got to make yourself heard is to appeal to other members of this community. From my side you are ignored until you do what I have already stated above.

Regarding the 28 days that have passed and you haven't even touched the brelvistic forgeries, I won't say that you are incapable to save your 'drowning' qadri and brelvism, because he has always been found drowned. You may put your 'last nails on his coffin' and save him.

Oct 27 (3 days ago)

Oct 27 (3 days ago)

Aamir

Scanned Proofs!

Refutation of point (d)

Umair like other Wahabis without proper knowledge claimed Malik al Dar (RA) to be Majhool, this time I will not only show proofs but also provide scanned pages along.

Although this has been explained shortly before that Musannaf Ibn Abi Shaybah (rah) who narrated the hadith himself wrote Wa Kana Khazin Umar along (i.e. proving that he was known), also Imam Ibn Hajr (rah) after calling the chain Sahih quoted it.

But let’s move forward and yet again destroy feeble stance of wahabis.

Ibn Sa’d (Rahimuhullah) one of the greatest authorities (d.230ah) said: Malik al-Dar: `Umar ibn al-Khattab's freedman. He narrated from Abu Bakr and `Umar. He was known [Ibn Sa’d, in at-Tabaqat-ul-kubra (5:12)]

Hadith al-Khalili(Rahimuhullah) [d.445 ah] said:

مالك الدار مولى عمر بن الخطاب الرعاء عنه : تابعي , قديم , متفق عليه , أثنى عليه التابعون

Translation: Malik a lDar(RA the freed-man of Umar, )He is agreed upon (as trustworthy), the Successors have approved highly of him[In his Al-Irshad fi Ma'rifa Ulama al-Hadith1:313-314]

Imam Ibn Hajr al Asqalani (Rahimuhullah) also said: "Malik ibn `Iyad: `Umar's freedman. He is the one named Malik al-Dar. He has seen the Prophet and has heard narrations from Abu Bakr al-Siddiq. He has narrated from Abu Bakr and `Umar, Mu`adh, and Abu `Ubayda. From him narrated Abu Salih al-Saman and his (Malik's) two sons `Awn and `Abd Allah [Ibn Hajar ‘Asqalanī, al-Isabah fī tamyiz-is-sahabah (3:484-5)]

Should I stop?????

Ofcourse Not

4:58 pm (7 hours ago)

Aamir

@Naheed

Here comes another Wahabi (Naheed) trying to act as a savior of Umair/Marij who have already drowned... LOL, Umair has been defeated in the debate, Marij went running to umair crying to him that Aamir had asked about hadith of man in need whereas you flooded over hadith of blind man, Muahahahaha, this is the reality of you Wahabis, when you are refuted you go completely mad, the Salafis can only deceive already deceived people, Khayr Marij also made some illogical points, they have been shattered into pieces aswell, Abu-Musab also came to scrapbook of Umair and cried to him not to talk about ahadith themselves because classical ulama accepted them … Muahaha, I have started to have pity on Wahabis now, Khayr I will deal with you too, If you have the guts then read my detailed analysis on the 2 absolutely sahih ahadith, do not repeat the typical lies of Salafis like Umair and Marij did, come with something new this time because Alhamdulillah salafism has been completly nailed.

Talk to Marij, he has asked for recession to prepare a reply, do not make this place a fish market by all wahabis going bizzare, you and Marij can agree to things mutually then 1 person can reply, This is the handicap I grant to you wahabis

The wahabi deception on 2 absolutly sahih ahadith have been highlighted point by point, go through my last posts directed to a)Umair b)Marij

5:47 pm (6 hours ago)

Naheed

@amir

"...alk to Marij, he has asked for recession to prepare a reply......"

I dont know what the problem with you is.
I have just asked you to provide a summary of yr claims pointwise - so that we can refer to it in dicusssion.

If you already have then you can copy paste again - whats the big deal ??

Do you have anything to hide ??

6:38 pm (5 hours ago)

Aamir

Summary!

Summary of what you should refute is

a)The Hadith of Malik al Dar (RA) is absolutly sahih and authenticated by Muhaidhteen, show me proof of Muhaditheen calling the hadith itself Daeef

b) Al-Amash and Abi Salih as Saman have narrated in the Ann form in Bukhari/Muslim, so salafis try to deceive Muslims that whenever they narrated in the Ann form there is Tadlees (Umair did not even know the name of Narrator and just flooded the screen.. LOL)

c) The Hadith of Man in need is also absolutly sahih

d) The conditions which Wahabis innovated are lies.

Now go through my posts above in detail, then reply to each point like I did when replying to Umair/Marij, otherwise let Marij reply, he has been given a respite to prepare an answer, I do not want every tom dick and harry of Salafis to go bizzare, let someone represent your sect properly, because I do not want you guys to say later on that I confronted some nincompoops who did not have much knowledge.

Total Number of Wahabis/Deo bandi and their byproducts involve in this debate:

1 - Umair
2 - Abu Mus'ab
3 - Saifullah
4 - Aqsa
5 - Loud as A
6 - Obair
7 - Thinker (israr)
8 - Omair
9 - Yousuf
10 - Deep blue Deep
11 - Naheed

after hard work of these 11 wahabis end result is:

Umair is missing. or should i say vanished after the proofs aamir i have posted about the lies of umair. abu mus'ab is flooding the thread and everyone can see abu mus'ab crying badly.

click here to see the condition of these wahabis.

These wahabis cant defend their forgeries and started attacking aamir ibrahim and when aamir gave answer to all the questions they vanished.

What a shame wahabis. You have done forgeries for which you don’t have answers. Aamir have slapped you well. This is your reality. This is what you deserve. Aamir got into the house of wahabis and kicked them badly and they are simply crying.

Shame on you wahabis

It is really hard for wahabis to stand the truth for a long time. Finally I am banned just after posting this blog in the thread.

3:36 pm (7 hours ago)

Abu Mus'ab

Omer,

Ignoring you is so much fun. But there's something more enjoyable than that; Banning a worthless member from this community.

Get the hint?

Forgeries of Wahabis (Self Proclaimed Salafi)

Saturday, October 27, 2007

Forgeries of Salafis

Salafis tampering Sahih Bukhari

This forgery proves their hatred for Prophet (saw)

Continued...

Salafi forgery to Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Proper Translation

Never ending examples!

Amir

@Umair and Abu Mus'ab

Important things to remember

@Moderators

O Ye Wahabis be sensible for your own good!

More corruptions done by Salafis

Continued...

@Aqsa

Umair deliberatly ignored Sahih Bukhari/Nawawi etc

Crucial Point!

@Aqsa

Amir

Umair dont sidetrack this time!

Why Quran does not go beyond throats of Khawarjis?

Israr caught!

Comments on your last posts:

@ obair

@ Amir

@ Amir

Umair brought into light another forgery of M.Khan

A glimpse of refutation of Salafis on Tawassul

The traits of Wahabis

Original Arabic of Kitaab al Adhkaar!

Continued...

@Saifullah

@Aqsa

More forgeries of Salafis

Amir continues his Brelvism

@Saifullah

@Saifullah

Bro Israr

Salafi talking about Metaphors.. LOL

Proving M.Khan wrong from other translations!

We take the whole zaat of Prophet as Waseela!

Explanation by Imam Ibn Hajr al Asqalani (rah)

Proving blunder of M.Khan from their own again!

Look at Umair's translation .. LOL!

"Abridged" an excuse by Salafis to do forgeries!

Ijma is always on Truth!

The Strength of Incident!

Hadrat Abu Ayyub Al Ansari(RA) on grave of Prophet

@ Amir

Deception of Umair!